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View Poll Results: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer Domestic Aircraft
Airbus A320 Series 4 36.36%
Boeing 737 Series 4 36.36%
Douglas DC-9/MD-80/717 Series 2 18.18%
Embraer 170/190 Series 1 9.09%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-29-2009, 06:14 PM   #16
 
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MYT DC-10 View Post
Well, if you have A32X up there. There is no reason you shouldnt have 757 aswell.

The 752 has more seating capacity at 200, whereas A320 at 180.

Its also 20mill cheaper. And has a longer range.
Delta
FCA-ATL, ATL-FCA
738
94 Seats
1 Weekly Flights during the Summer

Delta Connection
FCA-SLC, SLC-FCA
CRJ-200
50 Seats
6 Daily Flights

Horizon Air
FCA-SEA, SEA-FCA
Dash 8Q-400
72 Seats
3-4 Daily flights

Northwest Airlines
FCA-MSP, MSP-FCA
ERJ-175/A319
72 Seats
1-2 Daily Flights

United
FCA-ORD, ORD-FCA
ERJ-170
78 Seats
1 Weekly Flight during the Summer

United Express
FCA-DEN, DEN-FCA
CRJ-200
50 Seats
2 Daily flights

FCA-SFO, SFO-FCA
CRJ-200
50 Seats
2 Daily Flights during the Summer

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Old 12-29-2009, 06:26 PM   #17
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

Were do you get 94 seats for a 738 from? The seating capacity is 189 at a highest on them.

Oh and btw, im with Kris on this one.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:29 PM   #18
 
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOT 737-300 View Post
Actually, I had a good thought at things. Unless you're planning to offer a service that usually doesn't overlap with the bigger guys you can afford to run you out (they did it with the likes of Skybus and Indy Air) and yet, at the same time, can actually bring in money (so you'll be looking at operating types like a Jetstreams or B1900Ds). I don't think anyone believes you, and if you're looking to lease right now, why the do you not have any capital? If I were a leasing aircraft company, I would just look at your proposal, and l would just write that I can't possibly lease you my aircraft, while trying not to laugh. It's reasons like this, and the fact that you started this and talk like you are starting an airline (when most of us here can sense through this very easily) that people, not just me are getting on you about this!

It's also not incorporation licenses that you'll need too. In the states, you'll also will need a few more documents than just that to prove that you're allowed to operate, such a Certificate of Operation.

Your site looks like one of those freewebs deals too, like, it was just a "pretend" idea. The "investment" part of it is something I find currently funny:
"Be a part of the Air Northern founding family, invest in Air Northern stocks and bonds. Bonds starting at 2.59% for 2 years. Currently, Air Northern is selling shares of its stock for $10.00 USD per share. We will be selling stock at Kalispell/Glacier Park International Airport Summer 2010. Look for our booth."

You sell stock...At a booth...at the airport. Ok, in that case, which listing you guys are on, and what is the symbol I should look out for on it? I mean, if I were to invest in this, I would like to know how the company is performing financially at least 5 times a week.

As I've said, until I actually see this thing actually working, and operating, I'm going to be as skeptical on this as I can, and if I could, voice it too. You see, it usually takes most serious airlines at least 2 years before they become commence operations, and this is considering the airline already had a good amount of capital in it.

Also, looking at your site, you are also claiming that you are going to lease 6 BAe J32s, 5 DC-9s and a 737-200. That is starting 12 flights off the bat, 20% more than the total amounts of flights that Kalispell has! Very few airlines, unless started by a rich tycoon type rarely start out with more than 2 or 3 aircraft!


You forgot one thing though. The 737-300 is 737-700 and from a quick scan of a resource shows they both ahve a seating capacity of 149 in a dense (packed config). And if you want something smaller, there is always the 737-600, which basically is what replaced the 737-500 in production (and eventually B717-200).

In order to operate as a business within the United States, you have to have a business license. There are 3 kinds of businesses; Sole Proprieterships, Partnerships, and Corporations. In order to raise capital quickly and easily, not to mention sell stock, it is easier to be a Corporation.

When Southwest Airlines was created, it sold stock at booths within the airport to anyone who was willing to buy stock in the new company, which is exactly what I plan on doing.

It is not difficult to compete with the larger enterprises since I would be using aircraft that have more seats than they do. Flights to and from Seattle, Denver, Salt Lake, and Minneapolis are constantly oversold because they have more people buying tickets than seats available.

You're assuming that all 12 aircraft would be flying at one time, and to be perfectly honest, those numbers are just the number of aircraft the leasing office has that could be employed right away, not necessarily the number of aircraft I would start with. Not to mention, all i would need is around $20 million to start off with DC-9's, 737's, and J32's instead of buying or leasing larger and more expensive aircraft.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:29 PM   #19
 
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

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Originally Posted by MYT DC-10 View Post
Were do you get 94 seats for a 738 from? The seating capacity is 189 at a highest on them.

Oh and btw, im with Kris on this one.
Because that's the number of seats listed on Delta Airlines official website.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:47 PM   #20
 
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

Do I have everything planned out for my airline? No.
Do I have a dedicated webmaster who can put in all the little buttons and features you guys so desperately want to see? No, not yet. Right now, my company is just me and me alone, trying to refine every detail before I go and try to convince a bank or individual to give me a loan or even before I sell stock.
If I had everything planned out, would I ask you guys for your opinion on aircraft? No, I wouldn't. I'm talking to 4 different leasing agencies; 2 in the United States, 1 in Canada, and 1 in Dubai. I'm waiting on my marketing analysis from the company in Dubai and their aide to help me decide on the right aircraft. I just thought a little bit of public input would be nice. If you don't want to help, then quit posting here and harassing me. If you want to help, I suggest you give me constructive advice and not talk down to me like I'm supposed to know every little detail from the get go.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:53 PM   #21
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirNorthern View Post
In order to operate as a business within the United States, you have to have a business license. There are 3 kinds of businesses; Sole Proprieterships, Partnerships, and Corporations. In order to raise capital quickly and easily, not to mention sell stock, it is easier to be a Corporation.

When Southwest Airlines was created, it sold stock at booths within the airport to anyone who was willing to buy stock in the new company, which is exactly what I plan on doing.

It is not difficult to compete with the larger enterprises since I would be using aircraft that have more seats than they do. Flights to and from Seattle, Denver, Salt Lake, and Minneapolis are constantly oversold because they have more people buying tickets than seats available.

You're assuming that all 12 aircraft would be flying at one time, and to be perfectly honest, those numbers are just the number of aircraft the leasing office has that could be employed right away, not necessarily the number of aircraft I would start with. Not to mention, all i would need is around $20 million to start off with DC-9's, 737's, and J32's instead of buying or leasing larger and more expensive aircraft.
I'm still doubtful. Lemme just say, I have seen so many people come here pretending to be pilots and "potential" airline CEOs and the like here, we often sniff them out quickly, you're not the first. I can sense all the holes that you left open already. If you really are doing it (which again, I'm very doubtful), sorry, but you chose the wrong forum to go around and say "I'm starting an airline with big planes!" We have seen this so much from people we uncovered to be kids just trying to mess around with us, we become very tired very quickly when someone does post this stuff. Try Airliners.net or DAC, they might be willing to listen.

I never said anything about that you didn't need a business license, I just said that your plan lacks a lot of other stuff that you're posting (like that certificate.)

Quote:
It is not difficult to compete with the larger enterprises since I would be using aircraft that have more seats than they do. Flights to and from Seattle, Denver, Salt Lake, and Minneapolis are constantly oversold because they have more people buying tickets than seats available.
Again, look at the cases of Independence Air and Skybus. They were mostly competing with the likes of Regional Jets. All those more established guys did was slash their prices considerably and add more flights, or even had the mainline guys take them down. Not to mention that even then, these other guys do have a more established network, so just because I would guess that people would not like to haul their luggage from one airline desk to another.

Quote:

When Southwest Airlines was created, it sold stock at booths within the airport to anyone who was willing to buy stock in the new company, which is exactly what I plan on doing.
I'll try to remember that, DAL, with the many per day flights it had then = Kalispell with the 16 max daily flights it has now.


Quote:
Were do you get 94 seats for a 738 from? The seating capacity is 189 at a highest on them.

Oh and btw, im with Kris on this one.
There is also a range concern too I would guess as well as possible limitations (i.e. how much the airport could actually handle). My only other guess is that it would be some kind of EAS contract.

Quote:
You're assuming that all 12 aircraft would be flying at one time, and to be perfectly honest, those numbers are just the number of aircraft the leasing office has that could be employed right away, not necessarily the number of aircraft I would start with. Not to mention, all i would need is around $20 million to start off with DC-9's, 737's, and J32's instead of buying or leasing larger and more expensive aircraft.
Hey, I'm just reading off of what your website says, which does leave a lot of holes.

Quote:
Do I have everything planned out for my airline? No.
Do I have a dedicated webmaster who can put in all the little buttons and features you guys so desperately want to see? No, not yet. Right now, my company is just me and me alone, trying to refine every detail before I go and try to convince a bank or individual to give me a loan or even before I sell stock.
If I had everything planned out, would I ask you guys for your opinion on aircraft? No, I wouldn't. I'm talking to 4 different leasing agencies; 2 in the United States, 1 in Canada, and 1 in Dubai. I'm waiting on my marketing analysis from the company in Dubai and their aide to help me decide on the right aircraft. I just thought a little bit of public input would be nice. If you don't want to help, then quit posting here and harassing me. If you want to help, I suggest you give me constructive advice and not talk down to me like I'm supposed to know every little detail from the get go.
So basically, you're saying this is your own little idea, right out of your head. Which goes back to what I was saying yesterday. I've heard enough, even from the deleted posts from yesterday (and your change of story). First you talk to a A leasing agency, now you're talking to 4. Then you are saying you want OUR opinion on planes, but you have someone from Dubai doing it from you. You want constructive advise? You're asking for public input too, which is hilarious, since you're asking people from FAR outside of what you are going to be serving. That would be like me asking a group of people Kaliningrad or in Sri Lanka what they would want from a service that I'm going to be starting here in the US. You're looking far away from the main regional demographic like that.
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Old 12-29-2009, 07:43 PM   #22
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

Hi their!
I'm interested, where is you capital coming from? Private investors, govt, or friends? For the first set of aircraft why have 12, maybe you should recoup the costs you may incur when you first start, and then expand. Surely small turbo-props would be suitable for the first few routes (Dash-8-100)? I see you actually have a genuine website domain which I guess counts for something. What about to-be employees? Do you have them considered? What about supplementary costs? Fuel costs? Insurance? Aircraft maintenance?
As LOT mentioned, what about licenses? The AOC (Air Operators Certificate)? IATA and ICAO recgnition- do you have ID codes and numbers yet? Surely these take time to get and require lot's of cash?
Also, how did you pick your name? Is it based on the already existing airline 'Air North'?
At this moment in time, I'm just interested, and I don't doubt you, and neither am I gullible. LOT is right though, the liars tend to get 'sniffed' out pretty soon after subscribing.

Good Luck!
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Old 12-29-2009, 08:16 PM   #23
 
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

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Originally Posted by matt109 View Post
Hi their!
I'm interested, where is you capital coming from? Private investors, govt, or friends? For the first set of aircraft why have 12, maybe you should recoup the costs you may incur when you first start, and then expand. Surely small turbo-props would be suitable for the first few routes (Dash-8-100)? I see you actually have a genuine website domain which I guess counts for something. What about to-be employees? Do you have them considered? What about supplementary costs? Fuel costs? Insurance? Aircraft maintenance?
As LOT mentioned, what about licenses? The AOC (Air Operators Certificate)? IATA and ICAO recgnition- do you have ID codes and numbers yet? Surely these take time to get and require lot's of cash?
Also, how did you pick your name? Is it based on the already existing airline 'Air North'?
At this moment in time, I'm just interested, and I don't doubt you, and neither am I gullible. LOT is right though, the liars tend to get 'sniffed' out pretty soon after subscribing.

Good Luck!
Capital would come from private investors and banks. I would sell shares in the company to private people, the city and county, and use shares as collateral when applying for a bank loan.

The 12 aircraft isn't really a set in stone number. I am looking at leasing anywhere from 4-6 aircraft. I posted the number that I could purchase given about $25 million USD.

Small Turboprops won't be able to do the work needed or compete on the routes I'm starting with, except maybe the express routes. Dash 8-100's are too small and don't have the passenger capacity I need in order to compete with larger airlines.

I'm looking at persuing either licensing through TASC Aviation in Dubai or through wet leasing via Ryan International. Both organizations have branches to help with airline start up.

Until I get a corporate license and a US Tax number, I cannot start working on the major aspects of the project, such as FAA, IATA, and ICAO licensing and recognition codes. Once I have the corporate license and the ability to sell shares or use company stock as collateral, I can get a business loan and begin to attract investors.

Right now, start-up is placed somewhere around $25 million USD. I have gotten quotes from Palm Springs and IAH, but have yet to hear back from Denver, Salt Lake City, and Seattle. I am continually playing phone tag with the manager of FCA, and I hope to finally get a hold of her to begin discussing the cost of flying out of FCA. I am constantly refining and updating my business plan with each new tweek and fix as I learn more and more during the process.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:04 PM   #24
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

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Originally Posted by AirNorthern View Post
Small Turboprops won't be able to do the work needed or compete on the routes I'm starting with, except maybe the express routes. Dash 8-100's are too small and don't have the passenger capacity I need in order to compete with larger airlines.
Ok, since you do seem to be rather serious about it (though I still have doubts), I'll try to give some good, honest input from my own observations of the industry.

I think a smaller T-Prop could do some good, maybe not something with the capacity of a Dash-8-100, but perhaps something a bit larger with double the seating capacity, like the Dash 8 Q400 series or even something in the Dash-8-300 whose capacity is twice as large. Some of these larger destinations that are further out do not sound too bad for a much later time when the airline is better established, but right now, I think you should look at communities within 500 nautical miles (in which the T-Prop might be economically viable compared to a jet, especially in terms of fuel burn) that are not very well served, and could use some good, reliable air service with good, reliable connections. Personally, now that I think about it, the smaller Dash-8s could be perfect for the smaller, but yet serviceable communities (Such as Boise down the road from you guys, Helena, Missoula, and even Walla Walla and Williston, ND) as it helps save on fleet commonality for the larger Dash 8s and could create some good connections with the larger Dash 8s flying to the larger cities. Also, if you get permission to operate into Canada, I think one market that you should definitely look into that seems to be not serviced from what I can see; Vancouver and if you can it should be a good money maker.

As the airline grows more stable, I would guess that the next best step would be looking into the low 100s of seats, which I think the ERJ 190 could be perfectly suited for. With this aircraft, you could start to look at reliably serving KSLC and KDEN service, and replacing those larger routes by this point with these larger aircraft if deemed necessary. Not only that, with a fleet of 3 or 4 of them, you could possibly from Kalispell have good coeverage to the larger Californian Cities, and a few good cities in the American Mid-west, as well as other larger Canadian cities, such as Winnipeg. But for the beginning, if you're going to be doing all of your flying from out of Kalispell, I think that your airline's business model will have to focus more on having to connect these lesser represented markets onto aircraft to larger represented markets in the Beginning. It will be a slower cash flow, but in an industry where you want to be stable I think it will definitely work out much nicer in the longer run this way.

One thing I seriously would recommend against in the very beginning, especially with what resources you may have now is just jumping in there with a couple of large aircraft, as even though you may have a larger weapon at your disposal on these routes, your very well established competition has far more resources they can throw back towards you. With a well established network in the smaller communities, you can possibly hold your own much better for when you decide to really become a big player in these larger routes, especially if you can, especially in an industry that is said to be a bit too overcrowded as it is.

I should note though, for this plan, the smaller Dash 8s could be a bit too big in some cases, going for some J32s or B1900Ds could also be in your interest with this at first. Reason I say this is because I don't have the population numbers of these markets, or the passenger numbers of the airports.

There are things to look at much further down, such as perhaps moving your airline's base of operations to a larger market, or helping to expand your current base's facilities (which in itself will require a small investment), but right now, I would really try thinking about the aircraft you wanna use.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:10 PM   #25
 
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

One thing I have thought about is smaller aircraft and more flights, but the two biggest draws to Montana are skiing and hiking, both of which require a lot of gear. An ERJ-170 is big enough to have a large cargo hold, and small enough to carry 78 passengers plus crew, and fast enough to do more flights.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:31 PM   #26
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

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One thing I have thought about is smaller aircraft and more flights, but the two biggest draws to Montana are skiing and hiking, both of which require a lot of gear. An ERJ-170 is big enough to have a large cargo hold, and small enough to carry 78 passengers plus crew, and fast enough to do more flights.
In that case, I think what could really benefit you is to perhaps go with some of these larger aircraft, something that could seat up around 130-155 people. But instead of going right away towards doing normal scheduled service, try to become more of a Charter flight operator. Try to see if any travel agency groups or the likes would be interested, and if so, see if they would not mind having a contract to use your airline for flights. This could work out pretty well. This is essentially how ATA started in the early 1970s, and did not work too bad for them until towards the end when they likely expanded too fast for their own good as a scheduled airline.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:37 PM   #27
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

Fairchild and Hiller FH-227B just like I said before. Go ahead and report me. I dare ya.



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Old 12-29-2009, 10:58 PM   #28
 
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

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In that case, I think what could really benefit you is to perhaps go with some of these larger aircraft, something that could seat up around 130-155 people. But instead of going right away towards doing normal scheduled service, try to become more of a Charter flight operator. Try to see if any travel agency groups or the likes would be interested, and if so, see if they would not mind having a contract to use your airline for flights. This could work out pretty well. This is essentially how ATA started in the early 1970s, and did not work too bad for them until towards the end when they likely expanded too fast for their own good as a scheduled airline.
I've looked into the charter/contract flights, and there is a guy that wants me to do them to Chile, but I'm not sure about it. If I were to do it, I'd prefer to have him fund me some how, but then again, he also wanted me to do it with an Embraer, which is a bit absurd. Like you said, I'd have to go in the 130-155 range.
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:03 PM   #29
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

Why would a person who is opening an airline or any business for that matter ask the opinion of a bunch of kids? Most of the people here are kids or have little or no airline experience either working at one or running one. And why would someone opening an airline ask diecast airplane collectors? Something don't jive. Help me out.

Is this airline part 135 or 121?



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Old 12-29-2009, 11:04 PM   #30
 
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Re: Airbus, Boeing, Douglas, or Embraer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOT 737-300 View Post
In that case, I think what could really benefit you is to perhaps go with some of these larger aircraft, something that could seat up around 130-155 people. But instead of going right away towards doing normal scheduled service, try to become more of a Charter flight operator. Try to see if any travel agency groups or the likes would be interested, and if so, see if they would not mind having a contract to use your airline for flights. This could work out pretty well. This is essentially how ATA started in the early 1970s, and did not work too bad for them until towards the end when they likely expanded too fast for their own good as a scheduled airline.
One thing I have been trying to do is see about getting some of the skiing resorts to pitch in with specials through my airline to attract more customers.

I am still working on deciding which to go with, but I'd like to eventually move to a HUB and Spoke configuration.
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