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Old 05-02-2016, 03:35 PM   #46
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by NY Yankees View Post
I find it ludicrous when people say you need the EU to prevent Europeans from starting another war.
Keeping Germany without a viable military force would've done the trick.
That didn't work out so well after WWI. Versailles virtually guaranteed a second conflict.

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Originally Posted by vince1159 View Post
Because the UK has been strangled by rules and regs,if this so called 'union' were worried about the threat from Chinese steel etc don't you think they might have done something about it by now....What tax does the US put on imported steel?...
It's not up to the EU parliament to protect the British steel trade though Vince. The EU member states all retain responsibility for their individual industries.

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Originally Posted by NY Yankees View Post
In what areas do you think the EU delivered? Security, Growth, economic stabilty? Plese keep Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy etc. In mind.

Switzerland,Norway never joined the EU and are doing extremely well.
Switzerland and Norway both have much smaller populations than the UK and no associated strain on healthcare etc. It isn't really a good comparison. Both also have highly-specialised economies enjoying government protection, something the UK no longer has.

The EU has delivered on security for over half a century now, and hasn't done badly on economic stability until the financial crash (it isn't the only region suffering from this). The failure of the Euro is something that was bound to happen in my book and I never agreed with the idea that the whole continent should be using the same currency. But what the EU gives us more importantly than anything is the first working example of where mankind should be headed. Greater cooperation and nations working together above and beyond national differences. Learning from the past (WWI & WWII) and taking steps to ensure it could never happen again. Throwing it all away will be a step backwards for the entire species, let alone the UK or Europe.
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Old 05-02-2016, 04:52 PM   #47
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by NY Yankees View Post
Switzerland,Norway never joined the EU and are doing extremely well.
They're part of the European Economic Area, which is basically akin to being in the EU except you have no say in how things are run, you are at the whim of whatever regulations they set. It's a flawed argument as Switzerland's and Norway's economies are built differently from the UK. It's not free either, they have to pay in and still have to deal with open borders etc., a main point that many outers spout about.

I'd much rather the UK commit to the EU fully and become a major player, something that is entirely doable but something we don't seem to want to commit to. As said before, it doesn't help that some MEPs are part of UKIP.

I for one like the regulations and rights we're given for being part of the EU, it's also fun not having the Tories decide what goes into the British Bill of Rights if we do end up leaving.

It's sad that the people who will face the repercussions of us leaving are the younger generations, from the past couple of months it's been painfully clear that it's the older end who are waiving their jaded views of the EU around, bashing on any legitimate points raised.
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Old 05-02-2016, 05:28 PM   #48
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

Thanks, i wanted to know how Europeans feel about this. I know Obama wants the UK to stay in the EU.
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Old 05-02-2016, 09:06 PM   #49
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by MYT DC-10 View Post
They're part of the European Economic Area, which is basically akin to being in the EU except you have no say in how things are run, you are at the whim of whatever regulations they set. It's a flawed argument as Switzerland's and Norway's economies are built differently from the UK. It's not free either, they have to pay in and still have to deal with open borders etc., a main point that many outers spout about..
Pay something for nothing? Sounds like a great reason for leaving. That's like paying rent on an apartment and not living in it while also being responsible for the utilities bill for the entire building. I would expect that a nation like the UK would want to retain their individuality...for free!

The news here in the states mostly focuses on certain nations that are a drag on the prosperity of the Union...the punchline being that Germany and France ARE the EU and their economies are holding everything together. They routinely bail out debtor nations as a means of saving face that the EU is falling apart. As a member nation, I would expect that everyone pulls their weight or they are forced to leave.

The union itself is puzzling to me...not in it's stated purpose, but I fail to understand why a nation like the UK would choose to relinquish aspects of their sovereignty to a "foreign" governing body. And what are they getting out of it...really? Regulations? Raw deal!
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Old 05-02-2016, 10:46 PM   #50
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Pay something for nothing? Sounds like a great reason for leaving. That's like paying rent on an apartment and not living in it while also being responsible for the utilities bill for the entire building. I would expect that a nation like the UK would want to retain their individuality...for free!
Did you even read what I said?
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Old 05-03-2016, 04:56 PM   #51
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

Yes. Did you not write that they (the UK) has to pay in, but has no say in matters and that despite this "member fee" they are subject to EU regulations? It seems to me that the UK itself has decided not to be full members but "sort of" members. I don't see what sense that makes from a British standpoint. If I misunderstood then please clarify for me.

I can't speak to the EU as a whole, but the original question was about the UK and their "membership", which from what I gather from your statement they are members, but not really members...that they are paying some kind of "fee" to be involved, but are not permitted to be involved in actual policy making because they are not actual members.

So why then is the UK even a member...and if they are not a full member, what harm comes to the UK or the EU if they parted ways? Seems...really strange!
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:15 PM   #52
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by United930 View Post
Yes. Did you not write that they (the UK) has to pay in, but has no say in matters and that despite this "member fee" they are subject to EU regulations? It seems to me that the UK itself has decided not to be full members but "sort of" members. I don't see what sense that makes from a British standpoint. If I misunderstood then please clarify for me.

I can't speak to the EU as a whole, but the original question was about the UK and their "membership", which from what I gather from your statement they are members, but not really members...that they are paying some kind of "fee" to be involved, but are not permitted to be involved in actual policy making because they are not actual members.

So why then is the UK even a member...and if they are not a full member, what harm comes to the UK or the EU if they parted ways? Seems...really strange!
The UK is a full member of the EU. A fee is paid to be a member of the EU, into a 'communal pot' if you like, that is spent in member states on infrastructure projects etc. For example my local town, Doncaster, has had several new road improvement and urban regeneration schemes funded by the EU.

What members put in in fees, they get most back in rebates. Thus the claimed cost of EU membership is not as high as the 'out' campaign often claim.

The UK has the same opportunity to be involved in EU policy-making as France and Germany, but in recent years has become apathetic to the organisation and politics in general. Thus those who are happy to remain in the EU have not turned out to vote in EU parliament elections, leaving those wanting out to dominate the votes. This means that several anti-EU United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP) and British Nationalist Party (BNP) members have been elected to the EU parliament. UKIP members either elect not to attend the EU parliament at all and take no part in policy debates, or aim to obstruct the process to vent their displeasure. This results in the UK being seen as somewhat of an irritant child by many other EU states, and doesn't get the British people the deal they could get if pro-EU MEP's were elected to the Brussels parliament.
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:22 PM   #53
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

Quote:
Originally Posted by United930 View Post
Yes. Did you not write that they (the UK) has to pay in, but has no say in matters and that despite this "member fee" they are subject to EU regulations? It seems to me that the UK itself has decided not to be full members but "sort of" members. I don't see what sense that makes from a British standpoint. If I misunderstood then please clarify for me.

I can't speak to the EU as a whole, but the original question was about the UK and their "membership", which from what I gather from your statement they are members, but not really members...that they are paying some kind of "fee" to be involved, but are not permitted to be involved in actual policy making because they are not actual members.

So why then is the UK even a member...and if they are not a full member, what harm comes to the UK or the EU if they parted ways? Seems...really strange!
Then you didn't read what I said. I was referring to Switzerland and Norway.
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Old 05-03-2016, 08:33 PM   #54
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by bskc8th View Post
The UK is a full member of the EU. A fee is paid to be a member of the EU, into a 'communal pot' if you like, that is spent in member states on infrastructure projects etc. For example my local town, Doncaster, has had several new road improvement and urban regeneration schemes funded by the EU.

What members put in in fees, they get most back in rebates. Thus the claimed cost of EU membership is not as high as the 'out' campaign often claim.

The UK has the same opportunity to be involved in EU policy-making as France and Germany, but in recent years has become apathetic to the organisation and politics in general. Thus those who are happy to remain in the EU have not turned out to vote in EU parliament elections, leaving those wanting out to dominate the votes. This means that several anti-EU United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP) and British Nationalist Party (BNP) members have been elected to the EU parliament. UKIP members either elect not to attend the EU parliament at all and take no part in policy debates, or aim to obstruct the process to vent their displeasure. This results in the UK being seen as somewhat of an irritant child by many other EU states, and doesn't get the British people the deal they could get if pro-EU MEP's were elected to the Brussels parliament.
By far a much better explanation of the circumstances....thanks! European Economic Area vs. EU full membership, disgruntled membership majorities in the EU Parliament. etc...it sounds like a mess!

Thus, nothing has changed my original stance on the UK...sounds like they don't want (and perhaps don't even need) to be a member...not universally, I get that. But this is why I originally asked about the attitude of the British and their sense of sovereignty. I think the UK can interact with the rest of the continent without getting involved in the malaise of overarching EU politics...

"Then you didn't read what I said. I was referring to Switzerland and Norway."

I did, but fine. When you say that you wish the UK would commit fully, it sounds like the UK is one of these EEA members. I'm not fully versed on all the nuances of this...
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Old 05-04-2016, 05:07 AM   #55
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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By far a much better explanation of the circumstances....thanks! European Economic Area vs. EU full membership, disgruntled membership majorities in the EU Parliament. etc...it sounds like a mess!

Thus, nothing has changed my original stance on the UK...sounds like they don't want (and perhaps don't even need) to be a member...not universally, I get that. But this is why I originally asked about the attitude of the British and their sense of sovereignty. I think the UK can interact with the rest of the continent without getting involved in the malaise of overarching EU politics...
You're welcome! The EU is in crisis at the moment, mainly down to the double whammy of the Economic crisis and the situation in Greece, Spain, Portugal etc, while the immigrant problem is piling more adversity on top of it. Germany alone has already taken in 1 million people and while Angela Merkel has an 'open-arms' policy, it hasn't proven entirely popular with the German people by all accounts. However, walking away just weakens Europe even more and places it at the mercy of China, Russia and - with all due respect - the United States.

The UK doesn't really have an option unfortunately. It's either leave and risk further economic chaos and a reduction of our global ability to project cultural and political power, or stay in and weather the storm and help our European allies out.
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Old 05-04-2016, 03:24 PM   #56
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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It's not up to the EU parliament to protect the British steel trade though Vince. The EU member states all retain responsibility for their individual industries.
This is where i get weary about europe in general,let's go back a couple of yrs with Greece and their bailout then they started bossing them about immigrants,critisise UK for not taking enough then they do a deal with Turkey...It just seems that EU states run their countries as long as it fits with the plans of others...
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Old 05-04-2016, 03:47 PM   #57
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

Here's something that a lot of Brexiters seem to be ignoring: https://www.tuc.org.uk/node/124920

I'm not insinuating that there is a correlation between a certain class of people and people voting out, however over various platforms it seems the majority of people voting out are indeed caught in a group who would most likely be affected by workers rights.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:04 PM   #58
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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This is where i get weary about europe in general,let's go back a couple of yrs with Greece and their bailout then they started bossing them about immigrants,critisise UK for not taking enough then they do a deal with Turkey...It just seems that EU states run their countries as long as it fits with the plans of others...
I agree the EU isn't perfect Vince, and the whole sorry mess with the immigrants is deplorable. The Schengen agreement and open borders is only supposed to apply to EU citizens, so heaven alone knows why they decided it was a good idea to allow millions of immigrants from outside the EU unrestricted access to the member states. Hungary had the right idea by erecting that border fence in my opinion!

Things aren't ideal right now, which is why I don't think pulling out is an option. Running away from the problems isn't going to endear us to anyone and will hurt the British people in the long term.
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:04 PM   #59
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by MYT DC-10 View Post
Here's something that a lot of Brexiters seem to be ignoring: https://www.tuc.org.uk/node/124920

I'm not insinuating that there is a correlation between a certain class of people and people voting out, however over various platforms it seems the majority of people voting out are indeed caught in a group who would most likely be affected by workers rights.
That is true to a certain point it's bound to be affected but if the UK didn't have to pay (forced?) umpteen billion to europe whenever they felt like putting extra on the bill everything and everyone would be better off ...Start with the NHS and then Police etc...
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:16 PM   #60
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by bskc8th View Post
I agree the EU isn't perfect Vince, and the whole sorry mess with the immigrants is deplorable. The Schengen agreement and open borders is only supposed to apply to EU citizens, so heaven alone knows why they decided it was a good idea to allow millions of immigrants from outside the EU unrestricted access to the member states. Hungary had the right idea by erecting that border fence in my opinion!

Things aren't ideal right now, which is why I don't think pulling out is an option. Running away from the problems isn't going to endear us to anyone and will hurt the British people in the long term.
If the EU was a pet bsk someone would be justified in having it put down,personally i can't see things getting better only worse...When something that size goes out of control,how do you stop it...

Edit: No one would be running away,just making sure you don't get dragged down if they sink...
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