Should the UK stay in the EU? - Page 37

JALPAL · 12-26-2016, 01:10 PM

I do think they should leave so that they can control their own laws, regulations, treaties and relationships. Britain has always been independent and should remain so.

NY Yankees · 12-26-2016, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rugeley123

The BBC also thought the UK would vote to remain in the European Union, and thought that Hillary Clinton would be the next U.S. President, and neither of them happened. Personally, I don't think the Queen would back the UK leaving the European Union on both a legal level or in the fact that it may start the break-up of the union (remember, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar all voted to remain), thus I see this news article as more fake news.

Also, sorry to disappoint many people, but your vote to who wins the X-Factor is more 'legally binding' then a vote in a referendum...

The BBC pushes the left's agenda, they wanted to see Hillary elected and Brexit fail so is CNN, ABC,etc.
The real news is just coming now, they probably didn't want the Queen's position to influence the outcome before the referendum.

Brexit is goin to happen, mark my words.Referendums have consequences, the UK is not a 3rd world country that doesn't uphold the results of an election.

Jetboy2012 · 12-26-2016, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JALPAL

I do think they should leave so that they can control their own laws, regulations, treaties and relationships. Britain has always been independent and should remain so.

By that statement you show great ignorance. The Irish republic was part of England for hundreds of years until 1922, does that mean it should be part of Britain? I think they might disagree somewhat. Scotland was independent for hundreds of years before it was unified formally with England in only 1707. Wales was also independent of England at one time. There is no such thing as Britain in reality, but a collection of Kingdoms and principalities. We have German Monarchs - The house of Windsor was only changed to that in 1917 because of WW1 - they are really Saxe Coburg-Gotha (the later and its relationship to the WW1 German bomber then being used against civil targets in London tipped it over to Windsor). Does that mean we are really part of Germany? Only Wales and England voted for Brexit. Scotland and Northern Ireland very markedly did not.

And as for the Queen supporting Brexit. She's 90, of course she did, all the old duffers and nationalists did the same. And for those of you who supported Brexit; thanks to that 250 people in my home town have lost their jobs, as the US company does what it says it would do, and shuts its UK warehouse down, transferring it to Lyon and Wroclaw. Almost to a man those loosing their jobs voted for Brexit. Ask them what they think now?

While we are on the subject, Korea was occupied Japan for how long exactly? Does that mean it should still be part of Japan? I gather the Koreans would find that most distasteful When you seek to pronounce a precedent as gospel think in future about what you're saying..

rugeley123 · 12-26-2016, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY Yankees

The BBC pushes the left's agenda, they wanted to see Hillary elected and Brexit fail so is CNN, ABC,etc.
The real news is just coming now, they probably didn't want the Queen's position to influence the outcome before the referendum.

Brexit is goin to happen, mark my words.Referendums have consequences, the UK is not a 3rd world country that doesn't uphold the results of an election.

I'm not 100% sure 'Brexit' will happen, or at least in the way people expect in the UK. I think Britain will remain to be part of the European Union in some way, whether it's a relationship like Norway or Iceland (There is no chance the European Union will allow a relationship like Switzerland, that's already been stated), not being a Member but contributing in some way. Britain would have too much to loose if there was a complete exit, Europe would cope but Britain would be isolated, I have no doubt in that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetboy2012

By that statement you show great ignorance. The Irish republic was part of England for hundreds of years until 1922, does that mean it should be part of Britain? I think they might disagree somewhat. Scotland was independent for hundreds of years before it was unified formally with England in only 1707. Wales was also independent of England at one time. There is no such thing as Britain in reality, but a collection of Kingdoms and principalities. We have German Monarchs - The house of Windsor was only changed to that in 1917 because of WW1 - they are really Saxe Coburg-Gotha (the later and its relationship to the WW1 German bomber then being used against civil targets in London tipped it over to Windsor). Does that mean we are really part of Germany? Only Wales and England voted for Brexit. Scotland and Northern Ireland very markedly did not.

And as for the Queen supporting Brexit. She's 90, of course she did, all the old duffers and nationalists did the same. And for those of you who supported Brexit; thanks to that 250 people in my home town have lost their jobs, as the US company does what it says it would do, and shuts its UK warehouse down, transferring it to Lyon and Wroclaw. Almost to a man those loosing their jobs voted for Brexit. Ask them what they think now?

While we are on the subject, Korea was occupied Japan for how long exactly? Does that mean it should still be part of Japan? I gather the Koreans would find that most distasteful When you seek to pronounce a precedent as gospel think in future about what you're saying..

I agree with you on this one. But I do not think the Queen really would want to leave, it would make no sense for her to. Her power is limited the same whether we are a member or not in the EU, they don't decide that but our parliament does. And economically, the effects will be devastating on many small towns in the UK, as well as many large ones. Yes, they'll be less competition, but that'll mean an increase in prices, plus a decrease in the market that businesses will be supplying to

JALPAL · 12-29-2016, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetboy2012

By that statement you show great ignorance. The Irish republic was part of England for hundreds of years until 1922, does that mean it should be part of Britain? I think they might disagree somewhat. Scotland was independent for hundreds of years before it was unified formally with England in only 1707. Wales was also independent of England at one time. There is no such thing as Britain in reality, but a collection of Kingdoms and principalities. We have German Monarchs - The house of Windsor was only changed to that in 1917 because of WW1 - they are really Saxe Coburg-Gotha (the later and its relationship to the WW1 German bomber then being used against civil targets in London tipped it over to Windsor). Does that mean we are really part of Germany? Only Wales and England voted for Brexit. Scotland and Northern Ireland very markedly did not.

And as for the Queen supporting Brexit. She's 90, of course she did, all the old duffers and nationalists did the same. And for those of you who supported Brexit; thanks to that 250 people in my home town have lost their jobs, as the US company does what it says it would do, and shuts its UK warehouse down, transferring it to Lyon and Wroclaw. Almost to a man those loosing their jobs voted for Brexit. Ask them what they think now?

While we are on the subject, Korea was occupied Japan for how long exactly? Does that mean it should still be part of Japan? I gather the Koreans would find that most distasteful When you seek to pronounce a precedent as gospel think in future about what you're saying..

I'm sorry to show great ignorance. I am not a liberal and so perhaps take a somewhat different view of things - I think a more realistic view. It seems to me that many people, British and many others, died in World War II to stop Germany from controlling Great Britain. Now, ignorant as I am, I see people like you fighting to give Germany, which controls the EU, that very control the British fought so hard against. Britain is one of the greatest countries in the world and should control itself.

The example of Japan and Korea is a great one. How do you think the Japanese would feel about China controlling their country through some regional liberal association of Asian countries?

vince1159 · 12-29-2016, 01:39 PM

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rugeley123 · 01-01-2017, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JALPAL

I'm sorry to show great ignorance. I am not a liberal and so perhaps take a somewhat different view of things - I think a more realistic view. It seems to me that many people, British and many others, died in World War II to stop Germany from controlling Great Britain. Now, ignorant as I am, I see people like you fighting to give Germany, which controls the EU, that very control the British fought so hard against. Britain is one of the greatest countries in the world and should control itself.

The example of Japan and Korea is a great one. How do you think the Japanese would feel about China controlling their country through some regional liberal association of Asian countries?

As someone who studies law, in particular EU law, I don't understand where people seem to be getting this idea of Germany controlling the EU, as they don't. All I think it comes down to is that Germany get's the biggest say, because it's got the biggest population. In which case, that is true BUT Germany does not get to do what it wants at all, and the EU doesn't follow what Germany wants.

When EU nations decide on an EU law, whether it's a treaty, regulation, directive..., all countries get to vote, with each vote having a different weighting based on the population of the country. It happen's to be the case that the largest vote comes from Germany, who has approximately 15.93% of the EU population. Britain, by leaving the EU, would be giving up the 3rd Highest vote, as they are the country with the 3rd Highest Population, at 12.73% of the population. So if Britain would like a bigger say, then by increasing the population, they would get one (again, the British people benefiting from Immigration...) Thus although Germany has the greatest sway, Britain is not pushed at the bottom, and EU law isn't made just by Germany's vote.

It's not like you need half of the vote either in order to win. The EU has an important rule with this, known as Qualified Majority Voting, which is a way of making the voting system even more transparent and democratic, protecting both the larger and smaller states. This means that in order to get a law passed, there needs to be a minimum of 55% of the countries needing to vote in favour of the law. These nation's which have voted in favour must then represent 65% of the population of the EU. So, if 24 nations voted in favour of a law, but Britain, France, Italy and Germany voted against it, then the law would not be passed, as the 24 nations do not hold the minimum of 65% of the population. Even if Germany voted in favour of the law, but lets say Cyprus (who holds only 0.17% of the population) decides to reject the law along with Britain, France and Italy, the law would still be rejected due to the sheer size of the populations of the Big 4 nations! So in reality, it is a stupid idea for the U.K. to leave the European Union when it has a substantial influence.

Remember that countries do not need to vote for or against a law, they can also abstain. In that second scenario, let's say Cyprus Abstains instead of rejects the law. This would again result in the law being rejected as a country abstaining is taken to be a rejection of the law.

Also, the EU is actually a lot more democratic in it's voting than the UK, through proportional representation which is used in voting, along with the fact that EU citizens vote for the people who will be working in the European Council (Head's of state of each member state), 'The Council' (The Council of the European Union, made up of ministers of each member state, such as our MP's) and the Parliament (made up of MEP's who we vote for every 5 years under proportional representation). That is 75% of the law-making institutions of the EU, whereas in Britain, only 33% (some could argue 50%, arguing the Monarch does not have law making power, although they're legally 'wrong') of the law making institutions of the U.K. Parliament are actually voted for in a General Election, the MP's who sit in the House of Commons.

That's my answer to who really controls the European Union, and actually it's a lot different to what the leave campaign made out.

bskc8th · 01-01-2017, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JALPAL

It seems to me that many people, British and many others, died in World War II to stop Germany from controlling Great Britain. Now, ignorant as I am, I see people like you fighting to give Germany, which controls the EU, that very control the British fought so hard against. Britain is one of the greatest countries in the world and should control itself.

I think you could argue that British soldiers died fighting a war against a regime that was intolerant of opposition and rode to power on a wave of populism, rather similiar to the attitude we now have in the UK. If you are pro-European Union, you are an 'enemy of the people' in much the same way communists, Jews and homosexuals were 'enemies of the Reich' in Nazi Germany. British and commonwealth troops died fighting an insidious idea, not a nation. Nazism went beyond being a uniquely German condition and encompassed races from across Europe and beyond. It is actually somewhat perverse that the British people have created a situation that destabilises Europe and will certainly lead to political, economic and social division; potentially to armed conflict in an extreme scenario.

It is hard to quantify what makes a nation 'great' as there are plenty of different barometers of this. You could choose military power (USA), historical empires (Britain, Rome) or cultural richness (Egypt, China)...what makes Britain influential is our membership of so many global co-operative bodies. NATO, The United Nations, the G7, G20, the Commonwealth and also, the European Union. Britain sits on more of these global councils and forums than any other nation, including the US, Russia and China. However, leaving the EU deprives us of a degree of influence in European and, by extension, world affairs. It is daft to cut off your nose to spite your face.

With regard to people arguing Germany dominates the EU, it is essential to European peace to have a strong, prosperous Germany at the heart of Europe. History has proven thus. Those believing Germany seeks to dominate Europe, politically or financially, clearly do not have any understanding of the German pysche.

Six months on from the referendum, I still feel in a state of shock to be honest. I will never forgive the government that allowed us to be stripped of our status as citizens of the European Union.

bskc8th · 01-14-2017, 06:25 AM

There is an interesting article I've read today that I though might be worth sharing on this thread for reflection, written by Nicholas Boyle Emeritus Professor at Cambridge University. It was contained within the New European, a pop-up newspaper that started circulation shortly after the referendum in the UK and continues to publish at the present moment in time. As an aside, if you happen to read newspapers and are sick of all the advertising material they contain I recommend the New European as it containes a great many articles - even anti-European columns like that by UKIP-donor Arron Banks - and very little in the way of adverts!

The thrust of Boyle's article was that a brand of narcissism particular to the English was responsible for the outcome of the referendum, a deep-rooted trauma among the post-war generation at the sudden removal of Empire and Britain's decline from world power to bit player in world affairs. This contrasts with younger generations - who overwhelmingly voted Remain - have never had to deal with the 'legacy lost' that the older generation has, resulting in the disparity between the generations. There is an understanding, he argues, among the younger generation that being in the EU means the UK has a place equal to that of our neighbours like Germany, Italy, France etc, while older generations 'can't accept' that the Germans, Italians or French might be equal to the English. Note the use of the term 'English' rather than 'British', as the Scots and Northern Irish did not vote to leave the EU and returned significant majorities for Remain.

He makes the point that Theresa May recently called the Northern Irish and Scottish assemblies 'divisive nationalists' for wanting a say in Brexit negotiations while simultaneously failing to recognise her English nationalism in claiming to speak for those constituent parts of the UK against their will. He also tackles the attitude that Britain 'needs to punch above its weight' and recognises that while having lofty ambitions is not a bad thing, but needs to be tempered with an acceptance that filling your natural niche might be a better attitude and approach. It's this abbrasiveness on the part of the English, the belief that being part of the EU means they might have to treat other nations as equal partners, that makes them so averse to being in the union (despite the concessions the EU has granted such as retaining border control, opting out of the Euro, the rebate etc). The very fact that the UK has these 'special arrangements' is a sign of the differing attitude from other EU nations. This might also explain why Tory MP Bernard Jenkin, a leading campaigner for the leave vote, dismissed Malta recently as a 'tiny little island'.

Then, going further, he says the exposure to reality in the wake of Brexit, 12 months, 5 years, 10 years down the line will be the thing that finally reconciles the English to the fact that the Empire is over; only then will they accept the right of other nations to be equal and perhaps once again take their place within the European Union, or whatever exists in its place.

I don't like this dissection any more than any other English person would but I find it particularly hard to digest as it hits uncomfortably close to the truth. Even as a passionate pro-European it doesn't actually give me any joy to recognise this, and I wouldn't expect that anybody who voted to leave would really believe what is contained within the article in this, their moment of victory (It still is 'their moment' as such as we have yet to see anything substantial, positive or otherwise, result from the referendum).

I would encourage anyone, Remain or leave, to take a look at the New European. It is not a whitewash of pro-EU 'propaganda' as some might claim and certainly doesn't dwell on the referendum result or pander to the bruised egos of the 48% of Remain voters but rather tackles the situation we find ourselves in head on. The fact it contains a column by Arron Banks astounds but also pleases me in a strange way, it certainly shows someone is making an effort to reconcile the two sides and form some sort of constructive dialogue.

furryforest · 01-15-2017, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bskc8th

There is an interesting article I've read today that I though might be worth sharing on this threads....

A very interesting outlook and certainly made me reflect on my own family. I would class myself a very British and very proud of it. However I think i'm quite moderate in my views. I voted to remain. Here in Northern Ireland there is a sense that you can't be British and Irish yet I am proud of my Irish and Welsh roots which in a greater part make me British.

My parents always said something which I found slightly strange and to this day they keep repeating it. Hopefully none of my German friends on here will be offended, but will understand it's that generation. They always sayd "we won the war and now the Germans are the leaders of Europe, how did that happen?"

Both my grandparents fought in the war and my parents are post war babies who grew up with that as a recent event. I can in a twisted way see what they mean but I think they are wrong and somewhat stuck in the past. Strangely I have heard this from many people of my parents generation and I think that links in to the loss of Empire and the toll conflict took on the UK's role in the world. We came out of the Boer war weaker, then the First World War weaker and then the Second World War. I think my parents are at the tail end of the Empire generation and it's tough for them. As an old saying here goes, they view British soverignty "through rose tinted glasses."

bskc8th · 01-15-2017, 11:11 AM

I've often heard the same sentiment Furry and admit to having used it jokingly a few times myself; it does appear that the Germans 'run' Europe, particularly when you consider the number of foreign airlines and railway operating companies they own (DB Schenker railfreight who took over EWS, CrossCountry Trains whose franchise is operated by DB etc).

I think a great deal of it is down to the post-war circumstances though and the Germans certainly threw themselves into rebuilding their economy and national identity in a way the British have singularly failed to do. Rather than trying to keep up with the Germans we seem to have given in and retreated into a corner to dwell on our past glories. When the prospect of having that power and position reinstated was offered at the referendum - no matter how improbable and inappropriate it was - people willingly jumped at the chance to have it done 'quickly and easily' outside the EU rather than working to compete and rebuild within the union. It is a shame the nation can't accept our changing role gracefully and somewhat embarassing but that's the way things are now.

SausageAndMash · 02-02-2017, 06:19 AM

These 114 scumbags should be hanged for treason.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...nst/ar-AAmvLmk

rugeley123 · 02-02-2017, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SausageAndMash

These 114 scumbags should be hanged for treason.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...nst/ar-AAmvLmk

We live in a country where there is a free vote for what you agree with. You'll find that many, if not all, of these MP's voted against starting official EU negotiations are from constituencies where the majority of people voted for remain instead. Thus, these MP's were following what the people who voted for them wanted.

Also, this isn't treason, and hanging is a violation of Human Rights, which is set out in the ECHR (by the Council of Europe and not the European Union, which currently we are not leaving, however, the current government is looking into leaving, and also removing the HRA 1997, which from a law student perspective is quite useless anyway).

Easyjet · 02-02-2017, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SausageAndMash

These 114 scumbags should be hanged for treason.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...nst/ar-AAmvLmk

Treason? Really? How ridiculous does that sound?

SausageAndMash · 02-02-2017, 07:40 AM

More people voted to leave than remain. These idiot MPs should either go aong with that or not vote at all. They are eneimies of the state by going against the wish of the majority.