Should the UK stay in the EU? - Page 14

HerpaYVR · 06-10-2016, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bskc8th

Those from war-torn countries don't have the right to live in the UK though; the government has to grant them access and they've allowed in over 5 million Syrians, Afghans, Iraqis etc. We have less than half that number from other EU states so it's easy to see the whole immigration argument is flawed.

The UK has had control of its economy and social welfare throughout our time in the EU; the EU does not dictate internal policy and spending plans.

I am not a UK citizen so this is not my fight. I do have a European Passport so I enjoy the free and easy access to Europe, including the UK. When I watch the BBC and speak with Citizens of the UK as well as ex pats here, opinions are all over the place, but if you listen carefully there are systemic concerns.

Either way, the citizens of the UK need to decide which path to choose and then all citizens accept the Democratic process and travel on the selected path for better or worse.

Those of us outside of the UK, our opinion don't matter as we cant vote and I for one will respect and accept the decision as I really have no choice. Only the citizens of Great Britain can decide their fate.

bskc8th · 06-10-2016, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerpaYVR

but if you listen carefully there are systemic concerns.

Either way, the citizens of the UK need to decide which path to choose and then all citizens accept the Democratic process and travel on the selected path for better or worse.

Fair enough Herpa

Bear in mind though us Brits aren't happy unless we're moaning about something and this is just the latest installment!

My concern is whichever way the vote goes, this will not lie down and be forgotten about. I've seen it pit friends, neighbours and families together to some real extremes. All it's done so far is divide the establishment, cost lord only knows how much money and caused our European neighbours to become resentful of us. This one is going to rumble on for a while...

HerpaYVR · 06-10-2016, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bskc8th

Fair enough Herpa

Bear in mind though us Brits aren't happy unless we're moaning about something and this is just the latest installment!

My concern is whichever way the vote goes, this will not lie down and be forgotten about. I've seen it pit friends, neighbours and families together to some real extremes. All it's done so far is divide the establishment, cost lord only knows how much money and caused our European neighbours to become resentful of us. This one is going to rumble on for a while...

Oh Yes I agree with you. When ever you have such a high profile vote that may affects every person in the country, you will have those challenges as you mentioned. You see this all over the world in many countries where they want to separate, split, annex, get out etc and it does not always turn out the way the winners (depending on what side you are on) works out!

Its a serious vote and one that will have serious changes, some will be happy and some wont be. There is no right or wrong as its a choice and if its a near 50/50 there will be a lot of healing to be done!

NY Yankees · 06-10-2016, 10:58 PM

I

Quote:

Originally Posted by bskc8th

Fair enough Herpa

Bear in mind though us Brits aren't happy unless we're moaning about something and this is just the latest installment!

My concern is whichever way the vote goes, this will not lie down and be forgotten about. I've seen it pit friends, neighbours and families together to some real extremes. All it's done so far is divide the establishment, cost lord only knows how much money and caused our European neighbours to become resentful of us. This one is going to rumble on for a while...

You're trivializing it like Brits complaining about the weather. The people that want out have some legitimate concerns with the EU to moan about it.

It's like you didn't register any of the points made by the other side in the last 30 pages or so. I can see the benefits of staying and of leaving as well.

Switzerland, Norway aren't EU member countries, their economies didn't collapsed, they're doing better than the UK.

Speedbird 001 · 06-11-2016, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY Yankees

I

You're trivializing it like Brits complaining about the weather. The people that want out have some legitimate concerns with the EU to moan about it.

It's like you didn't register any of the points made by the other side in the last 30 pages or so. I can see the benefits of staying and of leaving as well.

Switzerland, Norway aren't EU member countries, their economies didn't collapsed, they're doing better than the UK.

Wonder why people always bring up Switzerland and Norway in here....not really comparable.....same way could I say look at Serbia and Ukraine...not in EU and not really doing better.

A) UK economy didnt collapse B) UK economy has a problem of it's own that it lost a lot of production business and is mainly concentrating on "online" economies like finance, insurances etc and C) UK has a few little more inhabitants than CH or NOR. A bit easier to live a wealthy life then with oil or bank industry with such a low number of people....

I wonder what the workers of Mini, Bentley or Rolls Royce will say...I would think they see a benefit of being part of european automotive giants with all the advantages the trading it has between those countries. Without that, I doubt UK would still have these cars around.

Recommend buying Spiegel newspaper today, it has a 24 page special in
English abt this vote....I think they are right in saying If UK votes out it will be short moment if pride only....we need UK and UK needs us and the ones thinking UK can do it alone will be proven wrong. Europe can only survive economically against China and the US in a united way.
Instead of constantly moaning, wrong pride and feeling superior to any other partner I would wish that all partners in EU would team up and build a better Europe. I mean it is like a marriage...you dont piss off right away once not all goes smooth, you fight for it being good each day. Pissing off is easy and what cowards usually do once it becomes to much work or too complicated, working on it us real strength....it is not perfect but then stay and work with all partners on EU 2.0 ! And that goes for ALL EU countries....also time for some countries to learn and understand EU is not the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow where you can take as much money as you like without giving something. It is not only a cash cow union but also has to mean solidarity....

NY Yankees · 06-11-2016, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedbird 001

Wonder why people always bring up Switzerland and Norway in here....not really comparable.....same way could I say look at Serbia and Ukraine...not in EU and not really doing better.

A) UK economy didnt collapse B) UK economy has a problem of it's own that it lost a lot of production business and is mainly concentrating on "online" economies like finance, insurances etc and C) UK has a few little more inhabitants than CH or NOR. A bit easier to live a wealthy life then with oil or bank industry with such a low number of people....

I wonder what the workers of Mini, Bentley or Rolls Royce will say...I would think they see a benefit of being part of european automotive giants with all the advantages the trading it has between those countries. Without that, I doubt UK would still have these cars around.

Recommend buying Spiegel newspaper today, it has a 24 page special in
English abt this vote....I think they are right in saying If UK votes out it will be short moment if pride only....we need UK and UK needs us and the ones thinking UK can do it alone will be proven wrong. Europe can only survive economically against China and the US in a united way.
Instead of constantly moaning, wrong pride and feeling superior to any other partner I would wish that all partners in EU would team up and build a better Europe. I mean it is like a marriage...you dont piss off right away once not all goes smooth, you fight for it being good each day. Pissing off is easy and what cowards usually do once it becomes to much work or too complicated, working on it us real strength....it is not perfect but then stay and work with all partners on EU 2.0 ! And that goes for ALL EU countries....also time for some countries to learn and understand EU is not the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow where you can take as much money as you like without giving something. It is not only a cash cow union but also has to mean solidarity....

You made my point it's the people of a country that make their own economy not the EU. EU or not you'll have access to the global market. We sell our products in Europe and we're not part of the EU.

And I've never said the UK economy collapsed, some want you to believe it'll collapse if you leave the EU.

NY Yankees · 06-11-2016, 09:43 AM

PS

TATA Motors an Indian multinational owns Jaguar Land-Rover. JLR has been doing well as of late because of the great cars they started making again.

A lot of the successful Ford models in the US are designed in the UK, Mondeo (Fusion), Escort etc.like TATA, Ford makes a lot of money because of Ford UK. We'rw not very good at making small hatchbacks like the Escort or Fiesta.

My point is, Mini, Bentley, RR are viable brands , the Germans made money by acquiring these brands. It wasn't charity to save Mini, Bentley workers as part of the EU solidarity.

vince1159 · 06-11-2016, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY Yankees

PS

TATA Motors an Indian multinational owns Jaguar Land-Rover. JLR has been doing well as of late because of the great cars they started making again.

A lot of the successful Ford models in the US are designed in the UK, Mondeo (Fusion), Escort etc.like TATA, Ford makes a lot of money because of Ford UK. We'rw not very good at making small hatchbacks like the Escort or Fiesta.

My point is, Mini, Bentley, RR are viable brands , the Germans made money by acquiring these brands. It wasn't charity to save Mini, Bentley workers as part of the EU solidarity.

Speechless!. Ford took over Jaguar then sold it to TATA (goodbye in english slang) then you mention Mini and that's the biggest joke of the lot considering it's 3 times the size of the original Mini which has taken away the very nature of the car...If you look at the Fiat 500 it's pretty close to its original roots and that's getting bigger with every new model and i'm not going to say anything about MG....

This hasn't anything to do with Brexit NYY just a shame that the uk let its car industry go the same way as yours did,down the pan when we had ways to sort it out but didn't take the opportunity and ended up getting flooded with imports...

NY Yankees · 06-11-2016, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vince1159

Speechless!. Ford took over Jaguar then sold it to TATA (goodbye in english slang) then you mention Mini and that's the biggest joke of the lot considering it's 3 times the size of the original Mini which has taken away the very nature of the car...If you look at the Fiat 500 it's pretty close to its original roots and that's getting bigger with every new model and i'm not going to say anything about MG....

This hasn't anything to do with Brexit NYY just a shame that the uk let its car industry go the same way as yours did,down the pan when we had ways to sort it out but didn't take the opportunity and ended up getting flooded with imports...

I agree. And the new Mini, not only it's bigger but getting uglier also.

bskc8th · 06-11-2016, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY Yankees

I

You're trivializing it like Brits complaining about the weather. The people that want out have some legitimate concerns with the EU to moan about it.

It's like you didn't register any of the points made by the other side in the last 30 pages or so. I can see the benefits of staying and of leaving as well.

Switzerland, Norway aren't EU member countries, their economies didn't collapsed, they're doing better than the UK.

It may sound like I'm trivialising NY but nothing could be further from the truth. This is a serious issue with potentially huge repercussions for many generations to come. While those who want out have concerns, equally there are those of us with grave and serious concerns about a potential 'leave' vote.

I don't fail to register the points made by the other side, I do try to understand and remain civil but I can't honestly see any valid facts being presented. It's pure conjecture at this moment in time and the overwhelming evidence that we'd be better staying put is what is influencing my vote.

You can't compare Switzerland and Norway to the UK; both have hugely smaller populations and highly-specialised economies too which is something the Uk lacks despite the emphasis on services in this country. Being an island also makes the situation slightly different. Norway and Switzerland both effectively pay the cost of EU membership to have access to the single market and must adhere to free-movement rules too, but without the ability to have a say in the EU parliament. If Britain leaves, we will be in the same position if we are to trade with Europe meaningfully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY Yankees

And I've never said the UK economy collapsed, some want you to believe it'll collapse if you leave the EU.

It's a possibility. It's in a fragile situation but slowly heading in the right direction and I don't want to vote for anything that might endanger that.

Speedbird 001 · 06-11-2016, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY Yankees

I agree. And the new Mini, not only it's bigger but getting uglier also.

Does that all in any matter for the people building it ?
No one said german companies like BMW or VW did buy these companies for charity....but it is pretty clear and obvious that is not really an advantage dealing with a country now outside a union while you took over that company when they were still inside that economical situation....

And no, you dont have the same access to the markets....best example is US and EU trade. You as US simply dont have the same access to our markets and that is one of the reasons you wanna have TTIP by all means. As UK inside you hv access to one of the biggest markets....hard to deny that fact.

vince1159 · 06-11-2016, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedbird 001

Does that all in any matter for the people building it ?
No one said german companies like BMW or VW did buy these companies for charity..

It does if the buyer's being conned by emission figures...

Speedbird 001 · 06-11-2016, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vince1159

It does if the buyer's being conned by emission figures...

Yawn....Vince...seriously ? Does that have to do anything with Brexit ?
And you really still believe the others didnt do ? What abt Fiat Chrysler and which jap company was it ? Toyota or Mazda....cant recall.

We will never come to a common opinion, but one thing we surely all agree. This vote is a decision not to be taken easy and if it is positive or not remains to be seen....pity though these days are wonderful times for nationalist tones and right wing pied pipers. those people dont need good arguments, they just need to say what the mass wants to hear....man, am i glad we dont have referendums like this over here for such important questions.

vince1159 · 06-11-2016, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedbird 001

Yawn....Vince...seriously ? Does that have to do anything with Brexit ?
And you really still believe the others didnt do ? What abt Fiat Chrysler and which jap company was it ? Toyota or Mazda....cant recall.

We will never come to a common opinion, but one thing we surely all agree. This vote is a decision not to be taken easy and if it is positive or not remains to be seen....pity though these days are wonderful times for nationalist tones and right wing pied pipers. those people dont need good arguments, they just need to say what the mass wants to hear....man, am i glad we dont have referendums like this over here for such important questions.

Seeing as though your from Hamburg i thought i'd mention it but your right it doesn't have anything to do with Brexit the same as me and NYY talking about the Mini although you seem to take it personally even though as you say lots of other makers did the same including "Jap" manufacturers...As for the referendums you don't have,be interesting to see what happens in the eu if the Brits do decide to leave...

NY Yankees · 06-11-2016, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedbird 001

Yawn....Vince...seriously ? Does that have to do anything with Brexit ?
And you really still believe the others didnt do ? What abt Fiat Chrysler and which jap company was it ? Toyota or Mazda....cant recall.

We will never come to a common opinion, but one thing we surely all agree. This vote is a decision not to be taken easy and if it is positive or not remains to be seen....pity though these days are wonderful times for nationalist tones and right wing pied pipers. those people dont need good arguments, they just need to say what the mass wants to hear....man, am i glad we dont have referendums like this over here for such important questions.

Maybe the British car companies were too honest by following the EU regulations put in place by bureaucrats in Brussels , making them less competitive than the Germans and Japanese that didn't follow the rules. it's less profitable to make a car that meet the tougher EU standards.

Standards that EU itself doesn't police, VW got caught in West Virginia after close to a decade of cheating.

That's another good reason to leave.