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Old 05-18-2016, 01:12 PM   #136
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Im certainly not a socialist - although I understand US and European definitions of socialists can differ somewhat!

The NHS could still work without such huge budgetary problems if it were run better and allowed to function without constant managerial interference. The £350 million figure that it is claimed we spend on EU membership is a misnomer and misleading figure that doesn't take into account rebates and investment by the EU in British infrastructure. Printing Euros is pretty irrelevant to the debate on this topic as Britain decided some time ago we were going to remain outside the Eurozone (an intelligent and wise decision I hasten to add, even as a supporter of the 'Remain' campaign).
The key word is COULD, even if you tax the rich and corporations 75% of their income to pay for all the extra folks you bring in, it wont be solvent.
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:16 PM   #137
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by Anglojet View Post
It'll just become extension of the Middle East known as Eurabia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurabia
Thanks....
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:17 PM   #138
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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The key word is COULD, even if you tax the rich and corporations 75% of their income to pay for all the extra folks you bring in, it wont be solvent.
The key thing to remember is the NHS is not run for profit and will always make a loss because of the nature of the 'business'. It's about minimising the budget needed to run it while keeping care standards high. If wishing to deliver universally available healthcare to all our people is socialism then I'm proud my country was the first to try it.
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:25 PM   #139
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by bskc8th View Post
The key thing to remember is the NHS is not run for profit and will always make a loss because of the nature of the 'business'. It's about minimising the budget needed to run it while keeping care standards high. If wishing to deliver universally available healthcare to all our people is socialism then I'm proud my country was the first to try it.
Let's hope it doesn't collapse with your need to be part of a union that brings more people from other countries to milk the system, sucking on the government titts sort of speak.
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Old 05-18-2016, 04:56 PM   #140
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by Anglojet View Post
It'll just become extension of the Middle East known as Eurabia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurabia
You've just backed up my view that this shouldn't be a public vote even more, thanks for that.
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Old 05-18-2016, 05:52 PM   #141
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by bskc8th View Post
The key thing to remember is the NHS is not run for profit and will always make a loss because of the nature of the 'business'. It's about minimising the budget needed to run it while keeping care standards high. If wishing to deliver universally available healthcare to all our people is socialism then I'm proud my country was the first to try it.
Always the dream, never the reality. "If only it was managed better...if only it has more money...if only there were better policies in place." If only, if only, if only...

On a broader level, sounds like the whole EU membership argument...
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:09 PM   #142
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Of course it's money,same as everything else,just begs the question why didn't they go there in the first place even if you're in the eu because the referendom stuff has been going on for yrs...I can't really get what you mean by scaremongering it sounds more like facts to me,you leave the eu,they leave the uk but as i've already said do you think it would tempt more companies to the uk from the eu to get rid of a lot of the pointless red tape/big brother syndrome...
From what I've read (I really can't remember any source so take it as you wish) the position the UK has in EU is pretty tempting compared to others. I was only reading something going into it in more detail a few days ago but I've forgot what it said to be honest.

Regarding tempting to the UK, from the statements that have been publish from large companies I really can't see that being the case.That 'red tape' that is there ultimately is for the good of the people, and in some aspects an advantage for smaller companies competing etc.

As for scaremongering, that's my argument as well, they're facts. You can't dismiss it as something that's stirring up fear just because the facts don't align to your perceived view of the subject.

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On a broader level, sounds like the whole EU membership argument...
Better to have tried and failed... (except we haven't failed)

Comparing the referendum to how the NHS is miss managed by the govt is a bit of a stretch.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:18 PM   #143
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by bskc8th View Post
1.1 million are Pakistani or Indian, and bring with them cultural differences that cause much greater stress and strain than fellow Europeans who to a large extent share our values and cultural identity. I mean this with no disrespect to these diasporas, but building a Mosque is far more likely to cause angst and controversy in the UK than building a Church would. They also tend to bring extended family, often old and unable to work who place strain on the NHS whereas European workers 'feed' money back to their older family members at home; which let us not forget is part of the common market that we currently enjoy!
Thanks for your very constructive and truthful post. I am trying to remain focussed and didn't want to bring non-EU migrants into the discussion, but I did say that 'immigration' is the root of our problems with the NHS and other social services and this is mainly due to the Pakistani/Indian/Bangladesh immigrants. Unfortunately we are our own worst enemy in this case, for if it wasn't due to these countries being part of the former British Empire, their decendants would not have been given dual UK passports enabling them to live in the UK. Anyone that comes here, should adopt our culture and way of life, not inflict theirs on us. That said, it is time to take back control of our borders and stop immigration period, only allowing those in that have the skills to fill job vacancies.
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Old 05-18-2016, 08:14 PM   #144
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Originally Posted by Albert View Post
Thanks for your very constructive and truthful post. I am trying to remain focussed and didn't want to bring non-EU migrants into the discussion, but I did say that 'immigration' is the root of our problems with the NHS and other social services and this is mainly due to the Pakistani/Indian/Bangladesh immigrants. Unfortunately we are our own worst enemy in this case, for if it wasn't due to these countries being part of the former British Empire, their decendants would not have been given dual UK passports enabling them to live in the UK. Anyone that comes here, should adopt our culture and way of life, not inflict theirs on us. That said, it is time to take back control of our borders and stop immigration period, only allowing those in that have the skills to fill job vacancies.
Immigration is not the route of all problems for social services, as said numerous times it's mainly poor management from the government. 72% of the UK prison population is comprised of whites, whereas Asians (Pakistani/Indian/Bangladesh) are at 7.1%. Bear in mind that means their race, not nationality, so British born Asians are also in that 7.1%. After WW2 Britain needed to rebuild itself and did so with the aid of migrant workers, and as you obviously know this was mainly comprised of Pakistanis and Indians. These people are now going on their fourth generation of family, are these people to be deported? Is it their fault their grandparents moved to the UK to seek better, more skilled jobs? We invited these people to the country to benefit ourselves. There's a common trend that poorer areas in the country tend to have the highest crime rates, this includes people of all races that are unfortunate enough to be in said areas.

I have yet to see myself subject to an Asian way of life, from what I have seen personally there are communities around the UK where people of certain race congregate to be around like minded people, but the most I'm subject to on a regularly/daily basis is seeing an Asian family run their own business in town. There are however certain cultural practises that they bring over which we may not like, such as the wearing of niqabs and burkas. Other than security reasons (not being able to see who it is) it doesn't effect you at all. Whilst I agree that they should adapt to our customs, such as treatment of women etc, it really is a non issue. If it weren't for the diversity and massive pool of human resources we've had via immigration we wouldn't be where we are today.

I really don't have a retort for your last point other than 'why?'. There are 5 million Britons abroad, and close to 1 million within Europe. The vast majority of these (especially within Europe) are people who contribute nothing more than part of their pension to live a better life. Flip that around and you'll see the same happening from their point of view, sure you get benefit scroungers but you also get that happening on the same scale from our own population. You also tend to find a lot of migrant workers will do the jobs Britons don't want to and will perform better in that job than ant Briton would do because they know they need that job.
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Old 05-18-2016, 11:27 PM   #145
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

[QUOTE Better to have tried and failed... (except we haven't failed)

Comparing the referendum to how the NHS is miss managed by the govt is a bit of a stretch.[/QUOTE]




Tried and failed but you haven't? Aside from the contradictory nature of that statement the real problem I have with it is at what point would you be willing to admit failure? Your fervent and adament support for remaining clearly suggest there is no benchmark...you never could...

The NHS and EU mismanagement are indeed very similar. You need to consider concepts on a broader level rather then getting caught up in the minutiae of a single issue because too many of you are suggesting that, with regard to either one, it COULD all work properly, it COULD be smooth sailing, it COULD lead to effective governance...if only it was managed better. Well, who decides what this perfect model is? Where are these wizards of smart that should be guiding you towards the promised social utopia? Don't you all have a say in whose elected to represent your nation to bring about this paradise...but then I forget, you don't even want there to be a public vote on the referendum at all! Very revealing about you...

Scaremongering..."It would be far worse if we left." Sounds like a fair bit of scaremongering to me from both sides so all is fair...

Look, the UK is going to vote to stay so you'll get your way. However, I suspect that with each passing year the voices in favor of reasserting British "independence" (a historic irony) will grow in numbers and there will come a day they will be victorious.
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Old 05-19-2016, 12:19 PM   #146
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Let's hope it doesn't collapse with your need to be part of a union that brings more people from other countries to milk the system, sucking on the government titts sort of speak.
As pointed out in my post though, the number of EU migrants 'milking the system' is insignificant compared with British residents doing exactly that. Speaking from experience, GP practices face the most appalling demands on their system from people who should know better. All appointments are gone by 10am and even earlier in some places because each and every morning around 100-150 people ring up with problems that are not really problems. You get to 11am or even 2/3pm and the genuinely ill people who are 'trying not to make a fuss' cannot get to see a doctor because the appointments have gone to people who have had a cough for 12 hours or woken up with a minor cold that morning and decided to immediately ring the doctor.

Sorry, rant over. Too many times I've had to turn patients away who needed genuine help because of namby-pambies who can't deal with a headcold. My point is the strain on the NHS has little or nothing to do with the apparent 'waves' of migrants from Eastern Europe. True there are some who abuse the system and do indeed come for healthcare 'tourism' but they pale into insignificance compared with the strain put on it by British residents. I think that's endemic of a general trend toward hysteria and over-reaction in society over the last 30/40 years or so.


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These people are now going on their fourth generation of family, are these people to be deported? Is it their fault their grandparents moved to the UK to seek better, more skilled jobs?
I think what unsettles me is that often while the grandparents and parents feel a sense of loyalty toward the UK, their children - particularly young males - not only feel no loyalty but feel hatred toward Britain and in extreme cases plot to kill UK citizens. What's important to remember in the context of the EU membership debate is that leaving would not 'give us back control of our borders'; all it would do would be to eliminate the rights of British citizens to work and live in Europe. Immigration from eastern Europe is a momentary phenomenon. It may last 15 years, it may last 30, but it will peter out in time. It won't have a terrible and catastrophic effect on our way of life, whereas immigration from the middle east and beyond has a significant impact on the continuity and strength of our culture and even security.

Last edited by bskc8th; 05-19-2016 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 05-19-2016, 12:32 PM   #147
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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You get to 11am or even 2/3pm and the genuinely ill people who are 'trying not to make a fuss'.

Sorry, rant over.
Rant away (i've had a few in my time)....Seriously though if some plonker keeps turning up time after time with a cold or something (you're a doc by the sound of it) can't you tell them to get lost...
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:35 PM   #148
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

From Boris Johnson.

Quote:
Uncontrolled” immigration from the European Union is driving down wages and putting pressure on schools and the NHS, Boris Johnson has claimed during a tense exchange with MPs on the potential impacts of Brexit.

The Mayor of London, the figurehead of the Leave campaign, who has previously been an outspoken advocate of immigration as a driver of economic growth, said that it was “absolutely wrong” that Britain did not have the power to “control these flows”.

Mr Johnson also claimed that membership of the EU could undermine UK security, citing border control and European Court of Justice rulings blocking surveillance of potential terrorists’ mobile phone data, warning that such decisions pointed to an economic union that was “morphing into a political union of the kind that I think is no longer in our interests”.
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Old 05-19-2016, 07:17 PM   #149
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

Anyone catch that unelected EU dickhead Jean-Claude Juncker speaking recently? He flatly refused to allow any renegotiation of Britain's terms whilst he is in power - and he's in charge until 2019.
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Old 05-20-2016, 05:22 PM   #150
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Re: Should the UK stay in the EU?

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Anyone catch that unelected EU dickhead Jean-Claude Juncker speaking recently? He flatly refused to allow any renegotiation of Britain's terms whilst he is in power - and he's in charge until 2019.
You mean the Commissioner who was elected by the MEPS that we elect.

You have about as much power over who the commissioner is as you do the PM. It's only logical you complain Cameron wasn't personally elected by you.
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